Culture, no matter where in the world, has played a principal role in creating the inaccurate conventional images that plague society even to the modern day. These stereotypes are essentially only recognized through the negative attributes that are sometimes portrayed from a select few people within that group. One class of people that have had the odds stacked against them from the beginning of humankind would undoubtedly be the female population. Shown in both And the Spring Comes and Mona Lisa Smile, the female lead character is depicted as going against the social norms of their culture just because they are trying to attempt to be independent.
Throughout the film And the Spring Comes, the expectation placed upon women in China is seen through Wang Cailing’s contrasting expected persona. When Cailing’s goal does not align with the cultural assumption that women need to get married and bring about children in order to live a fulfilled life she is perceived as abnormal. In the beginning she strives to become a famous opera singer so that she could sing at the National Opera House, but continuously gets impeded along the way by different obstacles that she faces. These hindrances cause disappointment and sorrow for Cailing, to the point that she must eventually conform to what society expects so that she no longer has to experience the constant unhappiness inflicted upon her. The visual progression of her facing reality ultimately shows the audience of the social inequality that women undergo in a conservative culture due to the lack of support from ones close to them.
While in And the Spring Comes the social expectations of bringing about a family are brought up from time to time, the film Mona Lisa Smile’s central theme is solely based on the perceived expected behavior for women in America during the 1950’s. A summary of the conservative thoughts during this era could be seen in one scene during which the students were taught proper etiquette so that they could host dinners and pleases their husbands. These social restrictions do not allow for the growth of individuality or knowledge, but instead, place women inside a gilded cage. So, when the main character, Katherine Watson, is brought into the movie she is recognized as the embodiment of change by her progressive thinking and maverick spirit. Her personality clearly opposes society’s expectations to the point that when contrasting today’s standards with those of the 1950’s her thinking more corallines with modern terms of equality. This revelation expresses to the audience that while social norms will forever be present, there is certainly a need to keep updating them so that the expectations allow for growth of every individual.
Even though each film takes place in a different country and era, there certainly is a constant theme in which people need to explore and learn upon so that they can gain the knowledge to better prepare themselves for change. These cultural representations show that we as humans must never stagnate in terms of societal progression, unless if we want to widen the gap between social inequalities among ethnicities, gender, and sexuality.
28 - Women’s Social Expectations
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Yuanping L.
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:57 pm
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi John F.!
Firstly I would like to say I really like your essay! You organized your essay very well! In the first paragraph, you show your overall opinions, which let me know what your essay is about before I have finished reading. And the transition between paragraphs are smooth, which make your essay clear. Your perspective is very unique and profound, which is focused on culture and social norm. What impressed me most is that you not only mentioned what we could learned from the movies but also your attitudes toward society and appeals to social progression. In addition, you used lots of advanced vocabulary, complex sentences, which I couldn't did in my essay.
However, in your essay, you just mentioned your general ideas about the movies. So I think it would be better if somewhere you mentioned about some details, like you could choose a scene that you thought was typical as an example. I think it would help to make your essay more convincing because a specific plot can help readers to recalls the movie and make your essay more vivid.
There are some points I don't understand in your essay. Maybe it's because my grammatical knowledge isn't enough. For example, in the third paragraph, "Her personality clearly opposes society’s expectations to the point that when contrasting today’s standards with those of the 1950’s her thinking more corallines with modern terms of equality", could you please explain it to me, especially the part of" when contrasting today’s standards with those of the 1950’s her thinking more corallines with modern terms of equality"? I also want to ask you whether you think Cailing and Katherine live a peaceful and happy life in the end? Why or Why not?
Any disagreement is welcomed. Looking forward to your reply.
Firstly I would like to say I really like your essay! You organized your essay very well! In the first paragraph, you show your overall opinions, which let me know what your essay is about before I have finished reading. And the transition between paragraphs are smooth, which make your essay clear. Your perspective is very unique and profound, which is focused on culture and social norm. What impressed me most is that you not only mentioned what we could learned from the movies but also your attitudes toward society and appeals to social progression. In addition, you used lots of advanced vocabulary, complex sentences, which I couldn't did in my essay.
However, in your essay, you just mentioned your general ideas about the movies. So I think it would be better if somewhere you mentioned about some details, like you could choose a scene that you thought was typical as an example. I think it would help to make your essay more convincing because a specific plot can help readers to recalls the movie and make your essay more vivid.
There are some points I don't understand in your essay. Maybe it's because my grammatical knowledge isn't enough. For example, in the third paragraph, "Her personality clearly opposes society’s expectations to the point that when contrasting today’s standards with those of the 1950’s her thinking more corallines with modern terms of equality", could you please explain it to me, especially the part of" when contrasting today’s standards with those of the 1950’s her thinking more corallines with modern terms of equality"? I also want to ask you whether you think Cailing and Katherine live a peaceful and happy life in the end? Why or Why not?
Any disagreement is welcomed. Looking forward to your reply.
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi Yuanping,
Sorry for responding so late to your reply but I want to thank you for your opinions on my paper. I completely understand why you thought I should add more specific examples from the movies. When I was originally writing the paper, I didn’t want to give details in case the reader didn’t watch the movie, but now thinking about it I could have just given the context and I would have been fine.
In regard to that example you got from my third paragraph, I also had to reread it over myself. I think I was trying to put two thoughts into one sentence which ended up becoming jumbled and incoherent. At the time I was trying to state how her thoughts on gender inequality were more modern in comparison to those who lived during the 1950s. Hopefully that helped explain what I was trying to get at. If you found other places within my essay that could be fixed/explained, please let me know and I’ll try to reword them for you.
As for your movie question, I think that Cailing and Katherine ultimately did live a peaceful and happy life in the end. This is because peoples’ goals and expectations adapt throughout their lives when their situations change. So even though Cailing and Katherine didn’t expect that they would end up adopting and going to Europe, respectively, I think that they realized the reality in which they lived in and ultimately made the best of their situation.
I look forward to your thoughts and comments.
John Faeth
Sorry for responding so late to your reply but I want to thank you for your opinions on my paper. I completely understand why you thought I should add more specific examples from the movies. When I was originally writing the paper, I didn’t want to give details in case the reader didn’t watch the movie, but now thinking about it I could have just given the context and I would have been fine.
In regard to that example you got from my third paragraph, I also had to reread it over myself. I think I was trying to put two thoughts into one sentence which ended up becoming jumbled and incoherent. At the time I was trying to state how her thoughts on gender inequality were more modern in comparison to those who lived during the 1950s. Hopefully that helped explain what I was trying to get at. If you found other places within my essay that could be fixed/explained, please let me know and I’ll try to reword them for you.
As for your movie question, I think that Cailing and Katherine ultimately did live a peaceful and happy life in the end. This is because peoples’ goals and expectations adapt throughout their lives when their situations change. So even though Cailing and Katherine didn’t expect that they would end up adopting and going to Europe, respectively, I think that they realized the reality in which they lived in and ultimately made the best of their situation.
I look forward to your thoughts and comments.
John Faeth
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hey John,
Your paper is impressive for its logic and structure, and, there are many in depth thoughts you have mentioned. Your paper is well organized compared to mine which is somewhat disordered. You have emphasized the importance of female independence, and gone deep into the social norms and inequality that women were facing by comparing two cultures, and you have mentioned that women should gain the knowledge to change. I think your perspective is indeed profound and interesting.
I have noticed in your paper that your main point is that women should make the change so that they can be independent from the social norms which hinder their personal development, however, in And the Spring Comes the theme is not solely about women's independence but that of people who are constrained by social norms in a conservative China. I think not only women should gain the knowledge to change but the society should make them and other groups free, and I think your paper will be more perfect if you look at these movies from more aspects.
As for your comment on my paper that I swithed abrubtly in my last two paragraphs, I totally agree and I think I should have organized them in a more logical and clear way. Actually the paper does not look like what I was expecting. You have mentioned that the nonverbal strategies are unnesessary in my paper, but I want to make it clear that I wanted to make comparisons between the two cultures, maybe I did not make a good structure and you cannot fully get my point.
I completely agree on your question that social chnages are important factors for the progression of society, but on the one that to social norms should be changed to become more individualistic, I don't think all forms of social norms should be challenged. Social norms like those mentioned in the two movies that impeded people's normal development should be changed, however, the society need other norms to keep it ordered and harmonious by imposing restrctions on people's improper behaviors.
Thank you for your commnets and questions.
Yuping Linghu
Your paper is impressive for its logic and structure, and, there are many in depth thoughts you have mentioned. Your paper is well organized compared to mine which is somewhat disordered. You have emphasized the importance of female independence, and gone deep into the social norms and inequality that women were facing by comparing two cultures, and you have mentioned that women should gain the knowledge to change. I think your perspective is indeed profound and interesting.
I have noticed in your paper that your main point is that women should make the change so that they can be independent from the social norms which hinder their personal development, however, in And the Spring Comes the theme is not solely about women's independence but that of people who are constrained by social norms in a conservative China. I think not only women should gain the knowledge to change but the society should make them and other groups free, and I think your paper will be more perfect if you look at these movies from more aspects.
As for your comment on my paper that I swithed abrubtly in my last two paragraphs, I totally agree and I think I should have organized them in a more logical and clear way. Actually the paper does not look like what I was expecting. You have mentioned that the nonverbal strategies are unnesessary in my paper, but I want to make it clear that I wanted to make comparisons between the two cultures, maybe I did not make a good structure and you cannot fully get my point.
I completely agree on your question that social chnages are important factors for the progression of society, but on the one that to social norms should be changed to become more individualistic, I don't think all forms of social norms should be challenged. Social norms like those mentioned in the two movies that impeded people's normal development should be changed, however, the society need other norms to keep it ordered and harmonious by imposing restrctions on people's improper behaviors.
Thank you for your commnets and questions.
Yuping Linghu
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Yuanping L.
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:57 pm
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi John,
Thank you for your explanations and opinions. I have another doubt about the last sentence in the first paragraph” Shown in both And the Spring Comes and Mona Lisa Smile, the female lead character is depicted as going against the social norms of their culture just because they are trying to attempt to be independent.” I think Wang didn’t tried to attempt to be independent. Because she really wanted to get married like other females in the movie, for example, she wanted to marry Sibao Huang but he refused. And she went to marriage agency for help. So in a way, I think she adapted herself to social norms, however, she couldn’t find a satisfying boyfriend to get married. Therefore, she had to be a single woman.
As what we saw in the movies, there are some characters in the movies. I think they also are representatives of the eras. So I wonder the supporting characters who impressed you most. Why? Could you talk about something about them? In addition, I noticed some members in other groups think Wang and Katherine are feminists. Do you have same ideas? Why or why not?
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Yuanping Lu
Thank you for your explanations and opinions. I have another doubt about the last sentence in the first paragraph” Shown in both And the Spring Comes and Mona Lisa Smile, the female lead character is depicted as going against the social norms of their culture just because they are trying to attempt to be independent.” I think Wang didn’t tried to attempt to be independent. Because she really wanted to get married like other females in the movie, for example, she wanted to marry Sibao Huang but he refused. And she went to marriage agency for help. So in a way, I think she adapted herself to social norms, however, she couldn’t find a satisfying boyfriend to get married. Therefore, she had to be a single woman.
As what we saw in the movies, there are some characters in the movies. I think they also are representatives of the eras. So I wonder the supporting characters who impressed you most. Why? Could you talk about something about them? In addition, I noticed some members in other groups think Wang and Katherine are feminists. Do you have same ideas? Why or why not?
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Yuanping Lu
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hey Yuping,
Thank you for your many compliments on my paper. I honestly feel that you understood what I was trying to portray, even though some of my sentences were incorrectly worded. As for your thoughts about looking at different groups, I originally was thinking of writing about other groups’ hardships in my first draft, but I felt that by writing about a specific group I could go more in depth about the social norms that made their personal growth harder. I felt this way because there were so many misfortunes faced by each character in And The Spring Comes that to describe each of their backgrounds while connecting it to Mona Lisa’s Smile’s characters would have been too complicated for a small essay. However, I will try to incorporate your comment into my final paper by referencing to the constrains felt by other groups during the time period in order to emphasize the pressure felt throughout the country.
In regard to your thoughts on my previously asked questions, your comment about how not all social norms should be changed really made me start thinking. Because looking back at when I was making the question, I do not think I was looking at both the positive and negative influences that social norms have on people and society as whole. I think I was only looking at the negative aspects that make social norms restrict our rights and freedom, without fully seeing the stability and order it creates. So, I completely agree with your opinion that we need some norms so that society could stay functional, but to also challenge the ones that hinder growth.
One thought that just came up while looking over my previous sentence was: at what point do we (as a society) end up challenging the social norms that keep us ordered so that we (as a society) can progress?
Thank you for your comments and ideas and I look forward to your response.
John Faeth
Thank you for your many compliments on my paper. I honestly feel that you understood what I was trying to portray, even though some of my sentences were incorrectly worded. As for your thoughts about looking at different groups, I originally was thinking of writing about other groups’ hardships in my first draft, but I felt that by writing about a specific group I could go more in depth about the social norms that made their personal growth harder. I felt this way because there were so many misfortunes faced by each character in And The Spring Comes that to describe each of their backgrounds while connecting it to Mona Lisa’s Smile’s characters would have been too complicated for a small essay. However, I will try to incorporate your comment into my final paper by referencing to the constrains felt by other groups during the time period in order to emphasize the pressure felt throughout the country.
In regard to your thoughts on my previously asked questions, your comment about how not all social norms should be changed really made me start thinking. Because looking back at when I was making the question, I do not think I was looking at both the positive and negative influences that social norms have on people and society as whole. I think I was only looking at the negative aspects that make social norms restrict our rights and freedom, without fully seeing the stability and order it creates. So, I completely agree with your opinion that we need some norms so that society could stay functional, but to also challenge the ones that hinder growth.
One thought that just came up while looking over my previous sentence was: at what point do we (as a society) end up challenging the social norms that keep us ordered so that we (as a society) can progress?
Thank you for your comments and ideas and I look forward to your response.
John Faeth
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi Yuanping,
I want to thank you for pointing out my logical fallacies because your comments truly do help improve the message of my paper. While I was watching And The Spring Comes I believe I saw the movie as how I wanted to see it so that it would fit within the topic of society’s expected behaviors. But upon reading your take of the movie, with the help of your explained scenes, I now see your view that Wang wasn’t trying to go against society, but instead just couldn’t find her place within it. At the current moment I’m not sure how I will be able to make that change within my paper because it is so integral to the topic, but I’ve already found some sentences that I can reword so that it fits more in-line with the plot and its meaning.
The main supporting character from And The Spring Comes that truly made an impact on my take of the film would be the dancer, I can’t remember his name. In my opinion, him being mistreated by the other common people made the social prejudices very apparent. Also, his and Wang’s perspectives helped me formulate my thoughts and ideas about the expected behaviors forced on us by society, so his presence helped me create the topic for my paper. As for Mona Lisa’s Smile, I would have to say Betty Warren (the one who got married to the husband that cheated on her) played a large supporting role in my eyes because at first her character was the ideal model of what Katherine didn’t want the girls to become. So, through Betty’s transformation from her being docile to actually going through with the divorce helped drive home the idea to me that people’s personalities can change. What were your favorite supporting characters from each film and how did their presence change the movie for you?
As for the idea that Wang and Katherine are feminists, I do believe that Katherine is a feminist to some degree. She wants the best for the girls at Wellesley and she pushes them to go after their dreams, even if they do not conform with the time period’s ideology of what women should be doing. Katherine also pushes for educational and professional opportunities that equal that of men. In regard to Wang, since you brought up your view of her situation I don’t see her as that much of a feminist anymore because she essentially is just trying to get through her life. She doesn’t try to actively go against what society wants of her and although some of her actions may evoke the idea of equality, her overall character doesn’t seem to fit the role of a feminist. These are my opinions, so they may differ from yours, but I would like to hear your take on this also.
John Faeth
I want to thank you for pointing out my logical fallacies because your comments truly do help improve the message of my paper. While I was watching And The Spring Comes I believe I saw the movie as how I wanted to see it so that it would fit within the topic of society’s expected behaviors. But upon reading your take of the movie, with the help of your explained scenes, I now see your view that Wang wasn’t trying to go against society, but instead just couldn’t find her place within it. At the current moment I’m not sure how I will be able to make that change within my paper because it is so integral to the topic, but I’ve already found some sentences that I can reword so that it fits more in-line with the plot and its meaning.
The main supporting character from And The Spring Comes that truly made an impact on my take of the film would be the dancer, I can’t remember his name. In my opinion, him being mistreated by the other common people made the social prejudices very apparent. Also, his and Wang’s perspectives helped me formulate my thoughts and ideas about the expected behaviors forced on us by society, so his presence helped me create the topic for my paper. As for Mona Lisa’s Smile, I would have to say Betty Warren (the one who got married to the husband that cheated on her) played a large supporting role in my eyes because at first her character was the ideal model of what Katherine didn’t want the girls to become. So, through Betty’s transformation from her being docile to actually going through with the divorce helped drive home the idea to me that people’s personalities can change. What were your favorite supporting characters from each film and how did their presence change the movie for you?
As for the idea that Wang and Katherine are feminists, I do believe that Katherine is a feminist to some degree. She wants the best for the girls at Wellesley and she pushes them to go after their dreams, even if they do not conform with the time period’s ideology of what women should be doing. Katherine also pushes for educational and professional opportunities that equal that of men. In regard to Wang, since you brought up your view of her situation I don’t see her as that much of a feminist anymore because she essentially is just trying to get through her life. She doesn’t try to actively go against what society wants of her and although some of her actions may evoke the idea of equality, her overall character doesn’t seem to fit the role of a feminist. These are my opinions, so they may differ from yours, but I would like to hear your take on this also.
John Faeth
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hey Jhon,
Thank you for your suggestions, and I think I should reorganize some of my structures because they are really disordered and not easy to read. I really appreciate your writing style that is to the point and concise. I always bear on my mind that English writing is not like Chinese which is complex and emphasizes too much on form, but I just cannot write the paper I am really thinkng of. Maybe I need more practice and reading.
Thank you again for your comments.
Yuping Lingu
Thank you for your suggestions, and I think I should reorganize some of my structures because they are really disordered and not easy to read. I really appreciate your writing style that is to the point and concise. I always bear on my mind that English writing is not like Chinese which is complex and emphasizes too much on form, but I just cannot write the paper I am really thinkng of. Maybe I need more practice and reading.
Thank you again for your comments.
Yuping Lingu
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Yuanping L.
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2018 7:57 pm
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi John,
I want to thank you for your many opinions. You not only told me what main supporting characters were but also mentioned their impact on you, which made me very surprised. You linked the movies with yourself, just like you combined the movies with audience in your paper. I think I have learned a lot from you.
Apart from the dancer, there was another supporting leader in the movie And the Spring Comes who left a deep impression on me. It was Wang’s farther. Although he played a less important role and had no lines, he showed a powerless father’s love to his daughter. In the scene I mentioned in my paper, the father’s tears fell down after Wang grinned at him. He couldn’t speak because of illness but he expressed feelings through tears. I think the tears is about a father’s love and excitement after seeing Wang was satisfied with her adapted daughter instead of having a tough journey eventually. And in the Mona Lisa Smile, I think Joan Brandwyn impressed me most. I saw how she hesitated to make a choice, attending Yale or having a family. She was excited when she knew she was admitted to Yale but not dared to tell anyone except her best friends. It did be a pity that she gave up the chance for further study.
I checked on Wikipedia and found some people compared the movie Dead Poets Society and Mona Lisa Smile because of they have similar themes. Have you seen Dead Poets Society? If you have watched it, I would like to know what you think of the two movies?
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
I want to thank you for your many opinions. You not only told me what main supporting characters were but also mentioned their impact on you, which made me very surprised. You linked the movies with yourself, just like you combined the movies with audience in your paper. I think I have learned a lot from you.
Apart from the dancer, there was another supporting leader in the movie And the Spring Comes who left a deep impression on me. It was Wang’s farther. Although he played a less important role and had no lines, he showed a powerless father’s love to his daughter. In the scene I mentioned in my paper, the father’s tears fell down after Wang grinned at him. He couldn’t speak because of illness but he expressed feelings through tears. I think the tears is about a father’s love and excitement after seeing Wang was satisfied with her adapted daughter instead of having a tough journey eventually. And in the Mona Lisa Smile, I think Joan Brandwyn impressed me most. I saw how she hesitated to make a choice, attending Yale or having a family. She was excited when she knew she was admitted to Yale but not dared to tell anyone except her best friends. It did be a pity that she gave up the chance for further study.
I checked on Wikipedia and found some people compared the movie Dead Poets Society and Mona Lisa Smile because of they have similar themes. Have you seen Dead Poets Society? If you have watched it, I would like to know what you think of the two movies?
Looking forward to hearing from you soon.
Re: 28 - Women’s Social Expectations
Hi Yuanping,
Your take on the characters and their importance on each movie was really interesting to read about. I never closely looked at Wang’s father, so to read your description about his role made me question how little I looked at the other characters. However, for Mona Lisa’s Smile I think Joan reminded me a lot of Betty which makes me think that our thoughts on the characters are pretty similar for the movie.
In regard to your questions, I am sorry to say that I have never watched Dead Poets Society. But after quickly looking it up on the internet, I think the themes are very similar in the aspect that a teacher tries to inspire their students through a form of art, in order to elicit a new way of thinking from their students. Since you thought of the movie though, what are your takes on the similar themes and the movies themselves?
John Faeth
Your take on the characters and their importance on each movie was really interesting to read about. I never closely looked at Wang’s father, so to read your description about his role made me question how little I looked at the other characters. However, for Mona Lisa’s Smile I think Joan reminded me a lot of Betty which makes me think that our thoughts on the characters are pretty similar for the movie.
In regard to your questions, I am sorry to say that I have never watched Dead Poets Society. But after quickly looking it up on the internet, I think the themes are very similar in the aspect that a teacher tries to inspire their students through a form of art, in order to elicit a new way of thinking from their students. Since you thought of the movie though, what are your takes on the similar themes and the movies themselves?
John Faeth